002 Wait, What? - Ashley Madison
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Carissa: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Wait. What? And today we have Carissa telling us a juicy story. Juicy but sad, but also informative, I would say. everyone's so over the topic of the leaked Ashley Madison list, but I'm not because someone very, very, very close to me. A sister, I feel like she's an attachment [00:01:00] to me, of me went through horrible experiences related to Ashley Madison, and no one talks about 10 years later what's going on with the victims of Ashley Madison's dead leak.
So that's what I wanted to talk about today. Yeah, that's, that's heavy. The documentary on Netflix was about a few of the victims that were willing to come forward and tell their story. However, I feel like it was mostly based around the CEO and his wife and how they started this, how they came up with it, and how they're surviving after the data breach.
And I think that that's irrelevant. I don't really care about that, especially because I'm so close to people that were affected and still affected today. Yeah. They seem like slimy people, kind of. But my question is and you can [00:02:00] not answer this, but I'll decide. Yeah. So if you had adultery in your marriage
Nicole: mm-hmm.
Carissa: Or if you found your husband on tender or whatever. Yeah. How, and he said, you know, I just was curious. I, um, love you. Right. I, you know, all of those things and gave you a bigger ring and, and did all the things. Would you and, and went to counseling even, would you be able to get over it? No. Yeah, so that's similar to what my friend experienced.
it was later in life for her. To Mary, she was in her late thirties, about 38, and um, actually about 35. And her fiance also [00:03:00] was late in life, married and was about 40 at the time. And that should have been an automatic red flag because any man that makes it to 40 who has no children and no wife, ex-wife, whatever is, they're probably a player, right?
And so, um, but she was at a time in her life when her career, she had the house, she had the career. She was in the best shape of her life. She had everything and she was ready to settle down with someone and she was reunited with someone from her past. And because the dating world is so scary, it's pretty terrible.
And, you know, you can meet people and you have no idea. Yeah. That's the thing. But even if you, this, in this particular [00:04:00] instance, even if you did know the person, for years, and I'm talking 20 years, 15 to 20 years until you live with someone or, or seriously date them. You really don't know them. And my mother always told me this, she's a licensed professional counselor and marriage and family therapist.
And she said that it takes two years to fully learn about the whole person. Right. And I never really thought that was true. And even if your friends with someone No, it's true. Yeah. I totally think it's true. Because even more, I think you need to see like how somebody reacts to like life situations.
Situations, things come up. You're gonna have bad days. Right. But it's like how do you handle that? Right, right. So that, you know, you can get away with [00:05:00] a few months when you know, a year everything's great. Everything's great. Yeah. Right. So back to the story. She was friends with this guy. She met him when she was 18.
Now he wasn't very open. He was very surfacey. Um, and then at one point when they were reunited, he seemed to suddenly open up. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, um, this was now 12 years ago that they started, they were reunited, so the focus on narcissism and even social media platforms. And that was not around yet the way it is today.
Yeah. There's no tiktoks about, there were no tiktoks about narcissistic abuse and signs. And if [00:06:00] you had no reason to look it up, then you didn't. No, I, I didn't even know it was a thing until my kids pointed it out. Oh, yeah. Like, they were like, do you know what a narcissist is? And I'm like, not really.
And they explained it to me. Yeah. Well, I don't know where I, I think maybe I learned from experience, but my dear friend really wanted someone in her life that she trusted and who was familiar. And when you, you know, date someone from your past, not necessarily like a repeat, but a friend. Well, yeah, because dating and friendship are like totally, completely different.
Yeah. Right. And yeah, I think I al I almost would question if some like personality disorders, are prone to just not being agreeable in romantic relationships. Like when you look at borderline personality or and [00:07:00] NPD, like, and wait, what is it? Narcissist? Yeah. Personality disorder. They just seem to have conflict, like in very close relationships the most.
Right. So when she was reunited with this guy, she had a really sense of comfort and trust. Yeah. And, um, unlike any other person she had dated before, and it probably felt comforting because it was, um, you know, someone from a great time in your life, you met him in college. Yeah. And all you knew was like the partying part of him.
You weren't dealing with like bills with him when you know, well, yeah, that's a different side. Right? And then it's so easy for even a close friend to portray something about themselves. That's not true. It takes a long time. And a lot of like, time spent together. And so anyway, this couple got together [00:08:00] and because they had friends in common backgrounds in common, um, grew up in the same area, went to similar schools, knew all the same people, it was just like automatic.
I. And she was over the moon and everyone thought they were just the perfect couple. They were actually referenced to the couple on top of the birthday, I'm sorry, wedding cake. And but I think that that's kind of like how it is with a narcissist. Yeah. And like now we know it's very shallow, but now we know that's a bad sign very much based in appearance.
Right? How do we look right to others? And, and everybody thinks, oh, look at the perfect like family couple, whatever, right? And they don't see what happens behind closed doors. Right. And that's another thing she learned. [00:09:00] So she and I shared everything. We grew up together. We both had, um, a parent missing in our lives.
So we bonded on that. We, um, we did everything together. We went to college together. We were roommates. We went to high school together. So I know her through and through and feel her feelings. I'm so empathetic, you know, with everyone, but really with her. So when this occurred, it really, really changed my life and the way I look at things.
And I really tried to not let it make jade things for me. Is that the word? Yeah. Like I, I remember hearing it said [00:10:00] that when I, when I spoke with your friend. Yeah. And I asked, can you get over that? Like, can you get over that? Right. That's different than like, um, filing it away back in the, you know Yeah.
In the boxes. Compartmentalizing. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And I was told, yeah, yeah, I can. And then I remember thinking like, does that, is that possible? Yes. Can people actually do, like, was I thought the same thing about such so many relationships, such a like transgression of like, um, trust. Yes. And I mean, there's just kind of different levels to it, but can't, I mean, you can say sorry, but like you have to mean it and not bring it up.
And the bigger, in the bigger better ring and the, and the more dates and the, you know, [00:11:00] compliments and the therapy, like willingness to go to therapy. Right. That's just like. Like bring, bring you back in. Right. The love bomb, like, right. So like we said, you know, 12 years ago we didn't know anything about that still unless we were, unless someone was studying it, I think, you know, or had been through it.
Right. And still we didn't label narcissist. We would say he's a player. He's selfish, he's self-involved. I mean, whether it's labeled or a female or a male, because women do cheat. Yeah. They can be. But whether it's labeled or not, when you're in a situation like that you know, something's not right.
Right. And, and your gut is constantly telling you that, but then there's other factors and your brain starts in of like, you should just put that away, you know? Well, in her situation, because of f [00:12:00] familiarity with this man, she did recognize, I, I don't know if you remember her saying she did recognize some of the red flags, but Yeah.
But ignored them. That's the part that Yeah, that's so, like, that's the part that's Yeah. Not healed. Right. And she, you know, I know him. He would never do that. So, um, they got married and they. Work. They tried to have children she had a miscarriage with a child that was a down syndrome child. And that's when things kind of sort of, I didn't know this.
Yes. Like, I don't think she talked about it much with you when we interviewed her. Mm-hmm. But this was a huge [00:13:00] thing. And he has no children. And she had no children. So during the time that she was recuperating from the miscarriage, which was at 17 weeks, so that's fairly far along.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Carissa: Um, she developed a uterine issue and, um, she realized that he was withdrawn and not as affectionate towards her, which he needed him the most because he was cheating.
Right. Yeah. That's what they do. And this couple this girl was a budding photographer. This was her second attempt at a career. And he was helping her with this career. He had some experience in it. And, they were together all the time. So she'd never thought in a million years, how could this man [00:14:00] that I spend every waking minute with, well, how could he find the time?
But you know what they say? They can always find the time. Well, yeah. Where there's a will, there's a what. Sure. So, so that's when she started feeling like something's amiss. Well, she blamed it on, they weren't living where they wanted to be, you know, they needed a fresh start, all of these things. So they moved back to a place where they were closer to their friends.
And, um, you know, of course happily, they ended up getting pregnant again. And a baby was healthy and it was the happiest time of her life, and she thought his life and there was no more, um, he was not withdrawn anymore. He was so happy. [00:15:00] Really? Yeah. And they were celebrating their anniversary, his birthday, and the, the news about the baby being healthy.
And, um, this was on a Saturday night. She said, let me see in August. Yes. Of 2014. And they posted on social media a picture of all of their friends toasting to the baby. And the following week she had the opportunity of a lifetime. So this is Saturday night, they go out, celebrate, and she was doing a photo shoot the following week., She had everything, the house, the man, the baby, now healthy. She had her first big gig. She was doing a magazine shoot at a lovely hotel, you know, everything. And in the middle of the night, the night before this [00:16:00] huge job, she had her foundings and it's a Facebook ation and it's from an alias.
And it basically says you know, I know your husband. I met him on Ashley Madison and we've been having an affair. And she, this person knew intricate details about my friend's life. And my friend said, this can't be true. Describe him to me. And she described him. To the T and she said, when did this affair occur?
Because again, they worked together, so how could this be? Right? And she named a time and um, she named a place. And so then she also my friend did not know about the data leak with Ashley [00:17:00] Madison. It had just broke the day before Really? And it was on the news. And we both like, knew a little bit about it, but I, I had heard Ashley Madison on Howard Stern, 'cause that was one of his sponsors.
Mm-hmm. And, but I didn't really know much about it. She didn't really know much about it. So when it was on the news, I was like, wow, that's major. Yeah. And you'd kind of be start thinking like, what, what's sleazy man on there? Well, exactly. So she and I are on a group chat with all of our best friends that we've grown up with, and all of a sudden it all starts first it was a list of everyone's name in the world.
Mm-hmm. Then they broke it down by countries. Then they broke it down by states. And we were in Louisiana at that time. And. Everyone said, look and see whose husband is on the list. Let's see if anybody's hus, and [00:18:00] she was the only one out of her friend group whose husband was on the list. And on the list it says, you know, their email address address at home.
Oh my gosh. How much money they spent. I didn't know that it listed their home address. Yeah. she saw a screenshot that this person reached out to her and said, if you don't believe me, look, he's on the list. So she sees an email that she doesn't even know that he has. Mm. So that's where it all starts. A secret email. Did, did she go into and and start looking at, well, that's a whole other story.
Yeah. This sounds like a really dysfunctional relationship. Yeah. And so this is at like 3:00 AM She's leaving at 7:00 AM to do this photo shoot. And she's reading this message and. It goes through her whole body like pain. Yeah. Went through her entire body. That's a [00:19:00] feeling of betrayal. And it wasn't any pain that she had ever experienced.
Yeah. Before. And oddly enough, her husband was next to her in bed and she didn't have a vocal reaction. She was still laying down like frozen was in shock. Yeah. And he jumps out of bed and said, what is it? What's wrong? What's wrong? Oh really? Yes. How weird. I know. To be so tuned in Right and on edge. Right.
Like any day now. Huh? This at this time. It's, exactly, exactly. And actually she had mentioned it to him the day before, she said, did you see on the news? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. How crazy is that? So that must have been why he jumped out of bed. Oh yeah. So was like, I'm not Yeah. Like three days of no sleep. Right.
Right. So when I when I heard about this I asked my friend, did you ask this question? You know, whatever. And I'm like, send a screenshot of it to me. Let me look at it. And [00:20:00] it was an alias Facebook account. And as soon as we mm-hmm. Could try to find it, it was gone. Mm-hmm. But luckily she had taken screenshots of it and she went to this photo shoot the next day and managed to get through it.
And then she decided to get a. A baseball bat. Oh, yes. Okay. And she put it in her car. Now remember, she was about 12 weeks pregnant at this time. So yeah, just an emotional time. Like really high level. Insane. Yes. And like turning the notch. But then on the second she still was like, I, I was even like, it can't be.
No, I think in those moments you get really like out of your body and just like you're acting out of you're, yeah. So you're just not thinking. [00:21:00] So he denies it in the middle of the night to her. He's like, I don't know what you are even talking about. You know, I love you. That would never happen. And she could still feel it.
Well, you know. Yeah. I mean, you know when some somebody's lying to you. I, I know. Like I feel it. I don't and she doesn't. And like, I don't know. Now. Now she does. Okay. Now she does. And now I have a better idea, but it's still really hard to distinguish because with narcissist it's so hard. And especially when you wanna believe it's just best to avoid it.
Yes. So like that's what I kind of learned in therapy is, um, like the healthier I get, the, the smaller amount of time I entertain toxicity. I. It's like I see it, I start seeing it. Yeah. And it's like, no, thank you. Yeah. Because I just don't want it. And that's a great place to be. And like, yeah. So if you see stuff and you're like, I kind [00:22:00] of see a flag here and there and there, but is it that bad?
Nope. We don't need to be asking those questions. We just go I think there might be some. Okay. You are like, I'm good. And you know, actually it wasn't that I remember now. She wanted, she asked him over and over and over and over and, and this went on for three weeks and he was still denying it and she broke him down and he finally said, I know who it is.
Oh. And, um, he said her name and called, but like, here's the thing. Here's the thing. How long was she asking? Three weeks. Okay. So in those three weeks he contacted like all of the hookers he was sleeping with Well and was like, he pinned it down to like the bass one or like the classiest one to represent all of the hookers.
Well, it all, all of the, all of the [00:23:00] puzzle pieces of the puzzle come together in the end. But I know who it is and it makes, I know which one it was and it makes perfect sense. So, yeah, I know. Who reached out to you? 'cause I contacted 'em all. It's only took me three weeks. To find the international loop of hookers that I've been hooking up with.
Wow. Um, in extramarital affairs. So that's a lot. Yeah. So he then says I'm gonna call my brother and see if he can confirm that this would be somebody who would do this. 'cause he knows her better than me. And so my friend was like, your brother, brother knows someone that you were having an extramarital affair with, better than you.
That says a lot. So in front of my friend, he calls his brother, tells his brother the situation, and he said positively she would do something like this.
Nicole: Hmm.
Carissa: [00:24:00] Then he also says, I think we need to call an investigator friend of mine, because I don't know what she would do. Oh, what she's capable of. Like, she's, she's psycho.
Right. So my friend was confiding in her brother, and her brother had gone through a really horrible marriage where his wife was having an extramarital affair with one of his relatives. And he said well wait, what? That's a whole Yeah. Are you. Stop. It's just, it goes on and, and on and on. So anyway, no, back to topic.
Okay. So he says this is, this is too much. He goes, you know what it is? No, I don't know at this point, no. She's like, no. What? He goes, you, you made that announcement on social media. You know, y'all are so h happy and the baby is healthy. She has to ruin everything. [00:25:00] And then she decided to strike. Oh, 'cause she's just like sitting there seething.
No, because I think that once, no, she was sitting there seething and like Yeah. And then like totally. She's like, I can't take it anymore. I need to ruin this. Yes, totally. 'cause I'm able, and he had also broken it off with her because the baby was healthy, they were happy, they were moving on and they had moved away.
And it turned out they lived literally half a mile away from each other. So I just think that this is too much to get over. Well, right. So, but she wanted this fairytale. No, she was having this baby that's, she had it all planned in her mind. So she was, it's delusional. Totally. And especially with all the pregnancy hormones, that is like a disaster.
Yeah. It's really sad times sometimes when you're like realizing where you, you know, and then she was like, I don't want everybody to [00:26:00] know. I'm so humiliated. You know, I, I got married later on in life. I have a good, you know, I have businesses, I have this and that. I, I don't want everyone to know that my husband, who is now going to be the father of my child was on the Ashley Madison list.
Plus you think like he'll change. Yeah. And that maybe this will be the big thing that'll make him change. Right. Right. Like, yeah, they don't, so No. So no, because they're problems in them, in her crazy and diluted mind. Right. And remind you, I am her accomplice at this time and I have like this big sister energy where I want to do something about it too.
So I'm feeding her hormonal craze. Oh. Of let's go after the girl. No. So, no, no. This is bad. Bad. So we looked up the [00:27:00] girl's information. No. And that's when we found out, like literally that's when you. Turn the computer off and walk outside and breathe some air. Well, that's not what happened. And just go like, okay, this is really bad, but life is gonna be okay.
And I'm leaving this person and I'm not attacking this female. And literally her, like all over our friends that like just a couple. Okay. We're like crying for her because she so badly wanted all this, you know, idyllic marriage and the baby and the house and the careers. Yeah. It's terrible. Yeah. But then you have to, so yeah.
So anyway, that's a month after she finds out, finally finds out the name of the girl. And even though she knows it's his fault, the way that the girl reached out to her was not [00:28:00] in a nice kind way. It was an, she had mal intent, but also you have anger and it's being displaced. Yeah. Like you're just mad, right?
And you're like, what do I do? So what she did was you go take a bat. She got a baseball bat. She put it in her car, and she went to her husband's office. She called him and said, wait, yeah, if you don't come out here right now, I'm gonna come inside of your office and tell everyone what you've done with the bat.
No, she didn't need that in your hand because that would be real fake. So, no, she, she had enough credibility with all of his coworkers that they would turn against him. Mm-hmm. So, and he knew that. So he comes down and gets in her car and she drives him to the middle of the house, to the girl's house.
Oh, yes. And she says go ring the doorbell. [00:29:00] And then, and they got out of the car and she left the bat in the car because he complied and came out and she rings the doorbell. Nobody comes out. They start calling the number, she starts calling the number she found. And it's someone hanging up. Hanging up.
So, yeah, because they're like, go away. Right. Like, you're insane. Right. And she, I don't think that this girl ever thought that this was going to transpire. Well, who would? Right? Who would Well, of course leave it to me and my best friend masterminds. No, this is totally insane. But it was like an, it was like, like imagine this girl looking down and seeing a pregnant woman with like, you know, the guy that she's been like hooking up with.
Right. And she's not too bright herself. So, well, I mean, obviously like, yeah, like who does this? Right. So she didn't answer. And my best friend said, you know what, [00:30:00] since you know you, you had so much, so many feelings for her and blah, blah, blah, and you did this, oh, you could stay. You live with her. You stay with her.
Good. And so that, that's the right answer. My friend pulls off and instead of leaving, she goes around the corner to wait and see if the girl comes out of the house to give her husband and if like, they're greeting with a kiss or a hug or something like that. Mm-hmm. And that's not what happened. He was pacing and he was walking away.
The girl never came out and he actually called a coworker to come pick him up. Well, 'cause that's the sane thing to do. But you know, my friend was thinking she's definitely gonna come out. No, they broke up. And so, um, so I mean they, that's when it all went down. That's when she saw the mask fall. Yeah. [00:31:00] Then nothing's the same anymore.
And it was as if they, hi, they, they stopped hiding after that. And then he totally changed. Oh yeah. His appearance changed. His demeanor changed. Mm. She didn't recognize him anymore, but he still was like going along with things that she asked. He um, she had a dear friend whose father is a deacon, and she asked him to go to confession.
Of course. He went, he did everything that she asked. Um, and she, she was told by all of our friend group, if you are gonna stick with this, you have to forgive him.
Right. But that's the thing I. Then comes up the mystery email address. Okay. So she decided to look up the mystery email address. She asked him for the login and password. He said, I've gotten rid of that as soon as [00:32:00] the Ashley Madison. Well, yeah, she, this man is a liar. Yes. So this is what he does. So she and her psycho no.
See, like, so here's the deal with all of it is like if you eliminate the liar, like, like leashing energy person, man out of the equation, then you don't need to go psycho. Well, so that wasn't an option because she was not letting this man go. So she calls a OL and says that the person that owns this account, which it was.
Someone in his family that was deceased. Oh, so he created a Yes. Yeah. They said the only way that they could get into this email account is if she provided a death certificate and the permission of her husband. And her husband said to her, if you go ahead with this and you go into that email [00:33:00] address, you will never want to speak with me.
Yeah. Ever again. And you will think that I am a different person. Yeah. And you will see things that are disgusting. Right. You'll see things that you never thought I was capable of. So why didn't she go and because she was pregnant. She wanted Yeah, she wanted it to work. And so at that point it was do or die.
And so I was like, get in that email. Right. I, I can't wait another second. She had the death certificate. She had his permission, but she, you know, she didn't want to ruin this perfect pregnancy. So long story short. So then, then it's better to just ignore it. Well, long story short, she tries and tries and tries and then keeps finding out.
He was on several other Yeah. Dating sites. He, he's shown you, you know, it's like. Who he is. Yeah. Whose fault is it now though? Right? It's like, because it, it's like [00:34:00] right there. Like, this is who I am. But then she starts reading messages on her, on his phone, and he's talking to his brother who's like a standup husband.
He's been married 10 years. Mm-hmm. And he was like, oh yeah, I was on this dating site. And my wife found out, and she was fine with it. She totally understood. 'cause we were married 10 years and we weren't even sleeping together regularly. Well, some, some people are fine with that. I mean, me personally, no. I don't wanna have that kind of like, no, me either.
I just like, I'm too authentic and like, you're gonna make me mad, and I'm gonna tell you. But she is not. She was not. She was not. So the point of this whole episode for me, and for her, it's cathartic because when the documentary came out, it, it, you know, brought up all of these old feelings. But then it made us think, look at her.
You know, she's still having issues in this [00:35:00] relationship. She's still getting abused. You know, she she lost everything. She lost her business. Is she lost who she was. She stood, I mean, she sat in a window her entire pregnancy, depressed. And there was nothing I could do to make her feel better.
There was not enough support in the world. And she said, I am going to let go of all this as soon as the baby comes. So the baby comes. Does it work like that though? And temporarily, you know, you're in a baby moon honeymoon, whatever, you're so excited about the baby. Mm-hmm. And you don't wanna bring these feelings onto the baby, and but then reality finally sets in.
Yes. And that's when the depression hits. Yes. And also the continued abuse. [00:36:00] Yeah. Yeah. It gets worse after our children come, so Yeah. When children come it, so, but then it was like, I would see them together and he was just obsessed with the baby and obsessed with a family life. He wouldn't even wanna take a business trip for more than one night to be away from her and the baby.
And so she felt so comforted and, and felt so safe with that at the time. The point of bringing this all back up is that I was with my friend who now has, you know, a 10-year-old and an 8-year-old, still married after a tumultuous 10 years. Lots of abuse lots of really bad things going on.
And, you know, I looked at her and I said, look at you. You were strong, independent you were well off. You had businesses, [00:37:00] you know, very much like Nicole. Like that that fire. Yeah. It's there. And it was gone. And she's gone through so many psychiatric issues. For three years she suffered. Terrible.
Different forms of depression, um, suicidal ideation you know anxiety, generalized anxiety complex, PTSD. And it came to my mind, why is it anybody talking about this anymore? And a lot of it has to do with there were a lot of like elected officials that were involved in this and Well, yeah. I mean, yeah.
So there was, there was, it was scandalous. So, and then it's forgiven though, right? 'cause time passes. Right. And then especially where I'm from in Louisiana and especially in New Orleans, you're taught to smile, look the other way and go buy yourself something expensive. But in her [00:38:00] situation, that didn't work.
'cause she was the breadwinner at the time. Oh, well, that's a bad deal. Yeah. So, um, right. So he wanted to make it up to her and start fresh mm-hmm. And give her the chance to stay at home with the kids instead of being the breadwinner. I mean, it's a nice idea. Yeah. But like, when you're dysfunctional and like, there's no situation that'll help and you're sick.
I mean, that's, that's, that's an idea they have in their mind. Oh, we're gonna be a family. It's gonna be great. I'm gonna be a dad. And like, you'll big pies. But it's like, in reality, you're sick in your head. Right? So none of this is gonna happen. So I asked her, I said, after all of this, you know. Did you forgive him?
And she's like, well, I, I forgave him, but it's still inside of me. Like, I can never forget this. And she's like, I really can't do it anymore. Mm-hmm. And after all of [00:39:00] this psychiatric you know, therapy neuro psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists, medicines, you know, but it's because you're trying to, you're trying to fix something while staying in the environment that's making that it's being Yes.
So well, so then there was a separation and this person, her husband was allegedly working on himself and Right. And she was responsible for her children in his absence, and he was living on his own and working, working on himself. And now he is coercively controlling her. So she has no control over the fight.
She went from being the breadwinner and an entrepreneur for then, at this point, 17 years to being dependent [00:40:00] on someone who basically tore her apart, gutted her. Well, that's the end goal, right? In this game, right. Is control. Right. And what does that look like? You don't get any money. You know, you don't have any kind of freedom agency.
Notice in making, he made her ask, so to this day, she has to text him each time she wants to purchase something for the kids, whether it be McDonald's or a notebook or, right. It's control. Yeah. Coercive control, financial abuse, whatever you wanna call it. And I'm so glad to say it makes it really hard for the person to leave.
Yeah. And, you know, and then when there's not a lot of money that this person is controlling and they're poorly controlling it, that's really stressful. Yes. So you don't, everyone, it's like, it's a, it's like tying somebody up and then burning [00:41:00] all of their belongings in front of them. It, it's, it's, it's infuriating.
It's like tax attorney, you're, no, you're just, it's just watching somebody destroy everything and you're not able to help. No. And you're like, I have an idea. That might help. No. Like, yeah. Like, I don't know. Pay, pay, pay. I gave her advice, pay the bills on time. I gave her advice. Um, they lost a house. No. I just feel maybe like, this person is bad.
It's beyond, it's beyond. I'm just bad at managing money. Okay. I can hear somebody say that and I'm like, okay. 'cause if you are a person that is, and you're not sick, you would say, can you help me? 'cause I can't manage money. No. This, this is like, um, grossly negligent. Like it's sabotaging. Like, I, like how does somebody of your age forget to pay the electricity bill?
Right? Like, this is something we've been doing since long time ago now, [00:42:00] right? Like, we're talking three decades. We've been paying, you know, it it like, why is your bank account not linked? What's going on? Why, what are you doing? Why can't I even look at the so bank account is what I'm thinking. Why can't she even look?
Because it's probably frightening. Honestly, you know, I would be frightened. Right? And I think her coping mechanism was also like, so what he would do to her is he would get louder and more dramatic so she would be quiet. Right. So the kids wouldn't hear.
Default_2025-06-03_4: Hmm. So
Carissa: anytime she confronted him, it became like you better shut off.
Or, well, because I will raise my voice so that children hear. And you don't want that. Right? So, but person to a total nightmare. But like, he doesn't care. No. He's like, I I don't care. He doesn't care at all. He's like, I don't care if they're like, no. Privy and traumatized by what we're doing. No. So that, that's.
That [00:43:00] that's a red flag. Yeah. Like huge. But then, you know, so I know that there were reported suicides. There were, but no one talks about really what happened to men and women that were victims because everyone's embarrassed. Well, I mean, I think it's bigger than that. I think it's like the people who have entered long term system, systemic abuse.
I don't think the general population understands how it actually does change, like your brain and, and how you perceive rewires your brain, how you perceive and, and your, um, just your general like responses. They're much more triggered and you're much more like sensitive to certain things and, and you don't even like, and you're on edge.
Yeah. Um, so, and [00:44:00] it, and it's wearing, it's wearing, it's tiring. It's tiring living like that. And as a friend, you know and she doesn't have a support system with her family. Basically her family was like, you know, deal with it and, um. He's supporting you now. Yeah. And she had gotten so low. Now she's such in a bad place.
Right. And all she can't dig herself out. Yeah. It's like the bottom of the bottom. Right. And like the basement. It's basically like, you would never imagine this person to be in this position. Like I would have never in a million years imagined her. And there's no help you can give to a person who is psychologically abused by this and doesn't have any.
Well, I mean, I think that like, it's, it's a hard, it's a hard road to walk and, and find your way out. 'cause I think [00:45:00] when you're in it, you're have, you're experiencing these weird like, sort of occurrences which you later realize are symptoms. And then, then that you start, and then you start connecting, like, oh, I'm having this reaction when this stimuli occurs.
Like somebody says something and then they make you crazy that you're the crazy one because you're reacting. Oh, that's reactive abuse. Yes. Yeah. That's fun. So that's another thing. But no, it affects you long term. And it, you gotta like kind of really work to get yourself back, like a lot of therapy and a lot of, so I'm watching that right now.
I'm watching all of this transpire. I'm trying to help as much as I can. And you know, I. Now she's lost 12 years of her life and really, you know, the best years of her adult life where she was in her best shape and her best frame of mind. And at [00:46:00] this point, if she would've not been knocked down by all of this, she would been in such an amazing financial place.
So she's missed time with her children over depression, um, sicknesses, chronic illness. Well, I, yeah, I mean. Small choices sometimes. So after you talking to her, what did you think? Like what would your advice, 'cause Nicole was an observer. Mm-hmm. You know? And what would your advice be to her? Because now she has no identity. She doesn't even have Yeah. But you, yeah. So a bank account, so there has to be separation.
And then like you build from basically ground zero. Yeah. So like, below ground zero. So like yeah. First of all, like turning your nervous system down, like getting to a place where you can actually like, process Yes. And, and, and heal [00:47:00] some. And like, I don't even know what that means to explain it to her, because no one can imagine what that's like.
Everyone's been hurt by a narcissist. Have they though? I don't know. Have they? I don't. That's what we wanna know. I mean, you hear a lot of talk and, and you know what, I think that narcissism is a, is is a spectrum. It's not just like a Yeah. It's not just a diagnosis. Right. Right. And so I think you can be on the spectrum having traits, but not have the formal diagnosis.
Right. Of NPD. I'm looking at the term, I do think that a lot of people have experienced people with traits. Right. Full blown. But now she's, they say it's a small percent. She's ready to come forward, you know, that's why she talked to us. She's ready to come forward. She's ready to separate, but now she's, yes, she has to.
Yeah, she's at a point where, and he's abused her family as well. Yeah. So there has to be separation. So financially he's abused [00:48:00] them as well, because I, I kind of feel like, um, not, you can't build and start like healing and building your life. No. Still in it. And it's still all lies. So the rehabilitation process was not helping, did not help the, it's a circle of abuse still.
She's still in the sick situation. Yeah. That's It. Adonia. So it's permanent. It's, no, it's not permanent. I have that, but I've, I've experienced when you're depressed and you no longer want a garden, or you no longer want to go out with your friends, you don't have like a motivation for anything. But this is like, I've never seen anything like this in her.
Are there other people out there that have forgiven and, and stayed in this and it works?
Oh, wait, stayed? No. I hope people know how to get out of like, bad situations. I know. Like, I, I feel like you [00:49:00] can't, you can't. She needs to start, you have to give up the A 5 0 1 C isn't that a, um, nonprofit? I think she needs to start one for women that don't wanna come out and say that their lives were destroyed by not just Ashley Madison.
Dating sites, finding their, you know. Oh, like the, the Tinder. The Tinder swindling. Tinder Swindler. Yeah. So, and it gets bad when your kids get older because you know they wanna go look on these dating sites and they are making fake profiles. My, my son was like, yeah, that's that. That's not for me. He went on there and he was like, it shouldn't be for you either, mom.
I'm like, no, no, I'm hearing you son. I'm hearing you. Yeah. But it's hard because you have to go out and see. It's like you're an like an older like adult. I don't have time. Like I'm doing a lot. Right. And you get very like [00:50:00] closed off to meeting people Yeah. she's now, it's not for me, you know, 50 and she is trying to reinvent herself and it is so hard to watch because there's not many options.
For women in her situation, believe it or not, as far as social services, et cetera, et cetera, have come. Yeah. There's no funding for this. There's no, well, there's going to be even less funding now. Yeah. Like there, yeah. We're, and there's no, no woman that has been successful and has children that has raised them in an upper middle class environment.
No one wants to bring their children to a shelter. No. And they would rather be in the comfort of their own home, regardless of, and actually like, yeah. It's, it, I think that it's important that there's women shelters and places for women to go. Like a to go a house. A house. [00:51:00] Like not a shelter. No, but I'm saying like a transient house.
Like sometimes you have to get out, out, like, right. So, you know, with one of my former businesses I did worked with a nonprofit that was a, was not associated with a religion or a church or, you know, another, so they were the, um, they were well on the list for donations. It was all moms, but it was more children than moms.
And you wouldn't believe the stories. Um. There are no accommodations for women that are in the, um, you know, middle class, upper middle class to get themselves back on track instead of going to a shelter. I think there're actually, I've, I've, um, I haven't worked with this charity, but I've given items for auction.
Right. And I, and it's [00:52:00] in c it's called like a Caring Place, I think. Anyway, I have to, they also have interact, which is for abused women, but still, you know, it's hard. So really, I just think that I wanted to know what everyone's stance is and does anybody wanna reach out and talk about it? Does anybody want to email us and say, I'm in that position.
Do you have any ideas for me? I need somebody to talk to. I'm embarrassed, you know, within my community. I need a, a, a leg up to get, you know, back into life. I've been carrying this albatross now. Is that a thing for Yeah, I mean, I'm making it a thing because I've watched my friends suffer. Oh no. I just, like, I'm just saying like, email us.
Yeah, email us at info at wait [00:53:00] what? Carry podcast.org please. And it can be anonymous. We won't be able to help you if we don't know who you are, but like if your name is in your email. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I guess you could blind like, yeah. Okay. Like, just like the girl, she made up a fake profile. So anyway I thought that was a juicy story.
Not juicy sating in a like, funny, positive way, but something that needs to be talked about for women and men. I mean, mostly it's 80% women that were affected by this or something like that. Don't quote me on that statistic. But I wanted to talk about it because not only did that Netflix documentary come out, um, recently and it's like everyone's so sick of it.
It's such old news, especially with the state of the country. The world. Yeah. I think it was just because the Karen re trial because that people wanted to see like who [00:54:00] Yeah. Who created That's, that's it. Who created it? Yeah. Well what kind of person created that? Right. That's why I wanted to watch. 'cause I'm like, let me see this man's content of character and it was scary.
I didn't get a good vibe. Ah, it's so scary. I kind of felt, and his wife was like, oh, I'm okay with it. It was so scary to me. She, yeah, it made, it really made me lose faith in humanity even more so than I have already. But we want to help her. We want to show you guys if there is anything that can be done for her at this point, or if she's capable of it, because now she's sick, she has chronic illnesses.
You know, and I can relate to that because I do too. And it's hard when you're a mom. You're alone, you have no money and completely [00:55:00] discredited by the actions of somebody else. So can you get over this? Is that a thing? Can you really forgive someone who's done that to you? I just, I wanna know my answer is yes.
You can get over it Well. Oh, not with the partner. After you leave the partner. Yeah. Yeah. I healed my head. Yeah. So, so, you know, I'm hoping that as she's now just recently, within the last week, drawn a line in the sand, you know, that this ends up, this sun's gonna be fun. Yeah. Yeah. This is the hard part.
Yeah. The, this is what the extreme abuse kicks in. And also that circle starts up again and you put your foot down and that person is like, fine, okay, blah, blah, blah. And then they start wealth bombing again. I'll [00:56:00] be, I'll be the perfect person. I've, I've had a ch it's like they, you go to bed and wake up the next morning and it's like, I've had a change of heart, right?
I'm gonna be different for you. Like, no, you're, no, you're not. No, because you don't know how and it's like, it's not in your like, capacity, right? To do it. Like, you just don't know how. Right. Like you can't, that's what I realized, like, you can want to, but like you really can't. You have to really go through this.
So she's trying, she doesn't even know where to start to process this. And she's trying to be a good friend, um, starting over a career, trying to find a pathway to be able to provide for her children, be a good mom you know, all of these things. Repair relationships that were damaged, you know, through all of this, over all of these years.
And it's just that person will never take accountability and [00:57:00] it's, no, they don't. So I really wanna try to. Connect with other women or men. We wanna hear your stories even if you don't want us to air it and you just want someone to talk to info at, wait what? Carry podcast.org. Email us with thoughts, ideas, situations.
We just hope that after we spoke with her, we wanted to communicate that it wasn't just a flip on the radar. People's lives have changed. People have changed. Yeah. But you can also like have so much happiness and like.
Re like releasing re like rebirth. Yeah. And just recreation of yourself after something like this. Yes. That's terrible. So there's this hope on the other side, and that's the journey that we're going on with her right now that we also wanna share [00:58:00] with you because how hard is it to reinvent yourself, you know, in your early fifties, So the Ashley Madison leak finding out whose husbands were on that, those phone calls were, or text messages were totally wait what moments.